Forum:WT:The Treacherous Waters of Mary Suedom

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Well hello there. This enormous rant of a writing tip has been brought to you by Solus and me, but for the vast majority it was Solus (which is why it’s sarcastic and utterly insane). I just added a few of my cents in, and she wanted me to post it since apparently everyone reads what I write (<-- delusional). So yeah, this essay is about MARY SUES and how they’re totally and completely awful. Enjoy.

Oh and if it seems like we’re describing your character, let me say two things: 1) this is a general overview of Mary Sue stuff and wasn’t directed at any one character/article in particular (any similarities to any persons living or dead are purely coincidental etc. etc. etc.); 2) if you do see things that could apply to your character, don’t come crying to us and blaming us for anything. We didn’t write your character. You did.

So yeah, again, enjoy! - Brandon Rhea ^(talk) (but mostly Solus ^{(Bird of Prey)})

Ze rant

How you uh, how you comin' on that novel you're working on? Huh? Gotta a big, uh, big stack of papers there? Gotta, gotta nice litte story you're working on there? Your big novel you've been working on for 3 years? Huh? Gotta, gotta compelling protagonist? Yeah? Gotta obstacles for him to overcome? Huh? Gotta story brewing there? Working on, working on that for quite some time? Huh? Yea, talking about that 3 years ago. Been working on that the whole time? Nice little narrative? Beginning, middle, and end? Some friends become enemies, some enemies become friends? At the end your main character is richer from the experience? Yeah? Yeah? Such a great show.

Who the heck is Mary Sue and why should I care?

Quick, Spock, run away! Mary Sue's on board!

So you've probably heard around these parts the horrible term known as MARY SUE. What is a Mary Sue? Well before that, where did the term come from? To quote Wikipedia, since that's easier than actually writing this out in our own words, "The term "Mary Sue" is taken from a character created by Paula Smith in 1973 for her parody story" of Star Trek called "'A Trekkie's Tale,' published in her fanzine Menagerie #2. The character in question was Lieutenant Mary Sue ("the youngest Lieutenant in the fleet – only fifteen and a half years old"). Smith's story poked fun at unrealistic and adolescent wish-fantasy characters in Star Trek fan fiction." This has since come to apply to any character like this in any genre.

The definition of a Mary Sue is not universal, people generally have their own ideas what they are, but usually in a kind of umbrella term, Mary Sues are a black hole. They bend reality to suit themselves. The rules of the universe they live in bend so that they may be "awesome" quote unquote. Basically, how a Mary Sue is created is...actually quite innocuous and can be very hard to spot early on sometimes. Basically, you have an idea for this character, right? And he's, like, cool and stuff, right?. You really want him to be cool and you really want other people to think he's cool, right?. So you make him do cool stuff and go to cool places. Now, disclaimer right this instant - cool characters are not inherently bad. What we're getting at is why they can become bad. Okay? We're getting there. Don't rush us.

The problem comes when making someone so "cool" they make them...bland. They can get away with anything because they're so "cool." They can do anything because they're so "cool." They can never be beaten because, well, he's just so "cool." They are the best at everything because they're just so "cool." People always listen to them or get redeemed by them because, well, gosh, they're just so darn cool. We've just described almost every Mary Sue in the history of forever. Pretty bland, huh? Seriously...they're just like each other. They're not unique.

Getting down to it

Stop whining or I swear to God you won't live to see Episode III.

Here's where it gets more applicable. Mary Sues are also often angsty - look, they have so many problems, don't you feel sorry for them? Aren't they cool? Now, angsting is not wrong, but it can get out of hand. If everyone a Mary Sue loves dies, if their parents always die, if they are always mistreated (anyone who mistreats him is automatically evil, of course) - it can get old. There's a thing about people - some people are good at empathizing with other people. We're sure you know a few people like that. But when the person you want someone to empathize with...doesn't exist...it's harder to feel for them, especially if they're like "MY _________ ARE DEAAAAAD!" every other sentence - especially if the rest of their life makes you think "good grief get over it I'd love to have your life."

When it comes to Star Wars fanfic - here's the rule-breaking - a character can go one of several ways. There's Jedi/Sith, or civvie (civilian). The Jedi is born, shows his Force ability in an awesome way before being trained, is taken in at an older age so he has reason to angst. The Jedi is the most bestest Jedi EVAR, better than Yoda by age 30, masters every lightsaber form (or the majority of them) then creates their own, redeems every dark person he meets, unless he doesn't, in which case he kills them rather handily. He can get away with having a star-crossed romantic relationship that usually ends badly, becomes leader of the Jedi, sometimes leader of a government, lives an insanely long time, and dies heroically if he dies at all. Sith is the same except, well, a Sith. The reason it's called Jedi/Sith is because these chars have a habit of switching between being a Jedi or a Sith whenever their hormones act up ("the mailman looked at me funny....omg SITH RAAAAAAAAAGE").

Then there's civvie - except they're never civilians, they're just non-Jedi/Sith. They're still often Force-sensitive so after this they have a habit of joining one or the other and becoming the best at that, too. But that's later. They're born normally, have something bad happen early in life, and join some major government as a military person, usually a pilot. They rise in ranks faster than you can say lickity-split, and usually own their own super-sized ship by 25 and can trash-talk anyone the author disagrees with and get away with it. If the author thinks there's a problem with the organization, he will start his own from scratch and be able to take on the larger, better-equipped, longer existing organization within 5 years. He will then take over that one, too. By this time, he usually finds out he's Force-sensitive, leading us back to Jedi/Sith.

Ergo, these Mary Sues tend to have a LOT in common and usually end up in the same place. When you can predict how someone's life is going to turn out before you get past paragraph one, what's the point in reading the rest? That's bland.

Breaks in reality

Also, did you see the breaks in reality while we recited what amounts to most SW fanfic - here or otherwise? We'll start at the beginning.

Before a person is trained, they don't show their Force powers in any flashy way. The most anyone ever showed was hunches. That's why when people go hunting for Jedi prospects (such as in the Kevin J. Anderson trilogy) they look - not for people who have been seen Force-pushing stuff around or floating whenever they feel like it - but for people who seem slightly lucky. That's it. "Lucky." And they can only tell that if the person is a betting person or, in some cases, has hunches or fast reflexes. That's it. They don't know how to do anything else because, as per definition - they haven't been trained. Ergo, someone Force-crushing or Force-choking before being trained is nonsensical. This is a bend in reality. It only makes sense in a few cases - when someone knows he's Force-sensitive and studies on his own. And do you know how hard it is to study something highly physical and mental through books? We'll leave that rant for someplace else, but you can probably imagine.

He. Was. The. CHOSEN. ONE.

Break 2. Being taken at an older age. This makes sense in post-Return of the Jedi fic so this will only address it for pre-A New Hope fics. Let's be plain. The Jedi don't take apprentices past the age of threeish. As a rule. There are exceptions. I will mention why they are exceptions. We know what you're thinking. "WHAT ABOUT REVANZZZ?" GETTING THERE HUSH. He was already a Jedi before he was trained later in life and the Jedi knew it. That's why they took him. It was like he took a break in his training and he picked it right back up. He WAS taken as a youngling before. So that doesn't count. "WAHT ABOUT ANAKINZ?" Three reasons for that:

1. He was the Chosen One
2. He was the Chosen One
3. Most importantly, he was the CHOSEN ONE!

Longer explanation: At first, even though they knew he probably was the Chosen One, the Jedi weren't going to take him in because he was too old and thus had too much time to harbor baser emotions. They only took him in for three reasons, all of which we will name. One: HE WAS THE CHOSEN ONE (Get that through your head plz). They weren't going to take him in at first because they didn't think there were any Sith for him to have to "balance," then when Maullie showed up, they were like, "oops. Guess we do need him." You will notice that later, they do not question whether Ani is the Chosen One, but whether the Prophecy has been interpreted correctly. Two: Obi-Wan promised he'd train him. Minor, related to point one in that they allowed it at all. Three: HE WAS THE CHOSEN ONE. Your char is not, whoever is reading this. Not unless you're writing AU, like Annikin Skywalker in The Chosen One. So you can't get away with older-than-three taken-ins. End of story.

Third, your Jedi is not likely to become the best Jedi evarz. There is a chance he can - but he'll be older than 30 for it to make sense, and he won't be as powerful as Yoda. Why? Yoda had 900-stinkin-years to train. Your char does not unless your char is of a long-lived species, but he still won't be as powerful while he is young. There are geniuses and prodigies in the galaxy. This isn't deniable, but they are very hard to write well without falling into these traps we've mentioned.

Fourthly. Do you know how hard it is to master ONE saber form? If it was easy, why didn't masters, older masters, in canon, have mastered them all? No, they mastered one. Because it's hard to master more than one. Try taking various swordplay lessons at the same time or in succession and then let us know when you've beaten the master in them all. If you ever get good enough to face even ONE. No offense to you or anyone reading this, just saying. It isn't plausible. As for making up a lightsaber form, that is acceptable when developed for one specific purpose, as all the general purposes are taken - but not so as to pwn everyone else.

Next, redeeming/proselytizing people. It's not easy. People get set in their ways, and just talking doesn't often do it unless you're a great orator and you know exactly what to say and you can raise some pretty convincing arguments. Yes, as a whole, people are stupid, but in the singular, though you may come across some gullible people, in general, when people are told they've been living a lie their whole life and you're way is "teh awesomez" they will be...shall we say...incredulous. And people who you're trying to turn from a Jedi/Sith to the other side by just your chars presence... doesn't... make... sense.

In addition, killing people, especially masters, isn't like whistling Dixie. It's not easy. Nor should it be - they DID train, after all. If they didn't and they were some stuck up librarian with a bloated sense of self-worth, then it makes sense for you to kill 'em easy but makes you seem like a jerk for killing a defenseless librarian. So, for sympathy purposes, chars usually fight - and easily win - against masters. That doesn't make sense! Not even Yoda could kill some powerful Sith. Sure, he could pwn a lot of people, but some masters still provided a difficult or even unwinnable challenge. Much less for your 25-year-old "prodigy." At least provide some difficulty - and certainly provide LOSSES. Let me try to say this simply...REAL. PEOPLE. LOSE. A lot. Unless your name is Chuck Norris. Or Dean Winchester. (I'm onto you, Baccie)

Romantic relationships for Jeeeeedai. Here's the thing: they don't happen that often. They do happen - people are people are people. But they don't happen to every. stinkin'. Jedi. alive. Especially when it's been drilled into their head that they can't from the cradle. Now if they DO happen to get into a relationship, happily ever after has to be a laughable concept. Unless you're writing some sort of AU with dramatically different Jedi stuffs, there has to be CONFLICT. The char has to be torn between his LOVE and his DUTY. Remember when Darth Vader felt conflict in ROTJ? Conflict between his duty to the Emperor and his love for his son? Conflict that ultimately resulted in his death? Yeah, remember that? Your character needs to feel conflict too. They can't go on living the Jedi life while having a significant other off to the side. The conflict will consume them, and they'll probably end up falling to the dark side. Anything short of that is totally unrealistic.

Then there's TRAAAAAAAgic romantic relationships. Mary Sues often have what is termed "the kiss of Death." That means everyone the Mary Sue loves has a habit of dying. Why? MORE ANGST! There. Now leave those poor ppl alone...

Look at me! I'm AWESOME!

Becoming the leader of the Jedi/Sith/Greys/Warriors of Virtue/McDonalds. For one, the Jedi don't have a leader, they have a council. If there IS a leader character, it's in the Sith, and we know they have a habit of dying. It's a Sith thing, so it wouldn't be desirable. To get on the Jedi Council, you have to be a Master, you have to be a good Jedi, and, here's the clincher...you have to be MATURE. They don't let whiny teenagers on the council - dear Ani notwithstanding, he was only in a plot to get to the Chancellor or else he wouldn't have made it. Think about it. It's a COUNCIL. Do you want council from someone who angsts constantly and has so many problems he needs a personal secretary to keep track of them all? No! Of course not! That defies the purpose of a council! And most Mary Sues are just that - whiny, angsty, problem-filled. Not someone you'd trust to help you with your problems at all. Therefore, becoming "leader of the Jedi" is out. If someone is mature enough to make it on the council...that still doesn't make him "leader of the Jedi" because...let us reiterate...THE JEDI DON'T HAVE A LEADER. The Grandmaster is a figurehead, the loudest voice out of money but one that ultimately doesn't carry anymore weight if the rest of the council goes against him. We'll end this part there.

Side note on the above: for leader of the Sith, we reiterate again. If it's during the Rule of Two, there's a 50% chance that your char WOULD be "leader of the Sith," but it's not much of title as he's leader over...surprisesurprise...one. whoop-de-friggin-doo. Not much of a "LEADAH." For an organization of Sith, that means there'd be a coup every day at teatime to get your position. Yeah. Doesn't sound like fun. And if you kill everyone who tries, you soon run out of Sith to be a LEADAH of. That means you'd have to stop them without killing them and get them to be subservient. And people don't like to be subservient to whiny, angsty teens - more for smart, fairly fair, and wise peeps. I.e. - NOT A MARY SUE.

Living an insanely long time, whether by natural age or by cryostasis or whatnot (which almost ALWAYS comes with eternal youth). Living a long time is fine for long-lived beings, so I won't touch on that, but almost all Mary Sues are Human, which in the SW universe live to about a max of 140-ish or so - i.e. NOT FOREVAR. And they get old. It's a fact of life, deal with it. As for cryostasis (and whatnot), there'd better be a good reason for it other than "I WANT HIM TO LIVE TO THE LEGACY ERA/BEYOND THE LEGACY ERA!" It has to make sense. Why? Because people like it when things make sense. This can be done well, so we won't harp on it too much.

Dying heroically. That's not a problem, it happens. It can be awesome. The thing is when a guy doesn't die at all, which falls into the jurisdiction of the point above. Up there ^^^. That is unless the story is unfinished. In which case it is unfinished.

Switching sides. It has to happen for a reason. People don't switch sides whenever they feel like it. It's a big thing, it has to make sense. And when people switch to a new side, they have stronger convictions for staying there because they chose it over their previous state for those reasons - not switching back the next day. It don't make sense. You don't jump ship from the United States to the Soviet Union because some low-level White House intern was mean to you. We will digress because that's pretty much all that needs to be said.

Rising in ranks at the speed of light. It has happened in real life. But then again, so did Chuck Norris and you can't make SW version of him without the galaxy exploding. It takes a long time, a lot of work, and a lot of discipline to do that. Oh, and a lot of submission and obedience. Tip: You don't get promotions for talking back to the General. Just a tip. Not many Mary Sues are like that. For the ones that are, it then makes sense that therefore are not a Mary Sue because of that. But still, people don't become Grand Admiral overnight at age 15. Just sayin'. Why? Well, ask yourself this question. Would you want your military led by an angsty 15-year old? Thought not.

Okay, about always being right and talking back to authority. We've mentioned a bit of that above, but let us illustrate a bit better. You know that one person who always thinks he's right and you can't stand (bacciebacciebaccie)? That's who we associate Mary Sues that always get away with things like that with. Yesweendedwithaprepositiongetoveriteventhoughsoluswouldneverevereverevereverletyouforgetit.

Getting a supership. They don't hand out the things like candy. The market for Death Stars isn't exactly the same as the Malibu housing market. We'll leave that there and let you extrapolate.

Making your own organization. That's fine. The problem comes in them becoming superpowerful in an absurdly small amount of time. Do you know what happens to rebellions that have only been around 5 years? Think blood and prison bars. Yeah. Why? They haven't had time to become powerful, organized, and equipped. End of storiez.

Finding out that he's Force sensitive after all this leads us back to the point far above me about overage training. So yeah.

The end

There, we've covered the points above, and here we'll mention two other common Mary Sue points: Mixed-breeds and canon chars.

If your char is a mixed-breed, make the mix make sense. A Bothan and a Human cannot successfully make little Humthans, kay? Humans can successfully breed only with near-Humans. There. I've said it.

Canon chars - i.e., having your char meet a canon person. This in itself is not bad, it's when it asserts that chars place in canon and/or makes that char fall in love with them against their previously established personality and/or kills them for kicks and giggles just to prove your char is awesome enough to do it. All of these points are referenced above. The exception is AU, which, of course, you can change canon and canon char's personalities, but you still have to do it well to be accepted.

File:JohnDemon.jpg

No, John. You are the demons.

/rant.

Note that this rant is not directed at any one person but is to be a guideline for anyone reading this who has trouble with making Mary Sues or has had "Mary Sue" listed as a problem with their work. This is a general rant. So don't take offense, plz? For Mary Sue tests, we direct thee here.

And then John was a zombie.

Discussion/comments/rage/stuffz

I have, indeed, taken offense to this, some form of way. I don't know how, but I do. SITH RAAAAGE TIME —Unsigned comment by E-123 Omega (talk • contribs). Please sign your posts with ~~~~!

• Oh joy, you and your bad jokes have migrated over here. I guess I'll just have to threaten to ban you for spam here too. - Brandon Rhea ^(talk) 03:34, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
  • Your friendly canon experts at Wookieepedia (and me in particular since I FA'd the Juyo/Vaapad article) would like to remind you that Sora Bulq is also a canon practitioner of Vaapad, he helped develop it. Also, Quinlan Vos knows a bit about it. Atarumaster88 ^{(Talk page)} 04:17, February 3, 2010 (UTC)
    • Eh, heh... ^-^; fix'd. Is there anything else that could be fixed, better worded, or added? -Solus ^{(Bird of Prey)} 19:20, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

So John was a zombie? That's it? -MPK, Free Man 21:42, February 3, 2010 (UTC)

Love it, Solus (<^.^<) ----れび ^{(talk to Lavi!)} 15:07, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

• Breaks from reality section: Remember when Darth Vader felt conflict in ROTJ? Conflict between his duty to the Emperor and his love for his son? Conflict that ultimately resulted in his death? Darth Vader was not a Jedi until the very end of the movie, after he had made his choice. Furthermore, it conflicts with your, it probably will consume them, and they'll probably turn to the dark side, stuff. A better example, to me, would have to be Anakin's conflict of interests in Revenge of the Sith. That example fits into it much better than the Vader example.-Chosen One^{So the Prophecy says...} 15:18, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

• It was just one example out of money of conflict in the films. It doesn't conflict with anything we said. - Brandon Rhea ^(talk) 15:44, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

• • Well Vader was not a Jedi...and it was talking about Jedi relationships and their conflicts. So I thought an example with a Jedi, and not a Sith, would fit better as an example. Also, if I remember correctly, the Old Republic Jedi (Pre-Ruusan Reformation) did allow older Jedi initiates, but that is probably being too technical. Rhea I am also assuming you meant "many of conflicts" not money. -Chosen One^{So the Prophecy says...} 18:04, February 4, 2010 (UTC)

• • • ....And I thought MPK wrote long rants. ---Ping^{(JediCommando)} 00:25, February 5, 2010 (UTC)
      • I do. -MPK, Free Man 03:29, February 5, 2010 (UTC)
    • Chosen One has trufax. I point you toward Nomi Sunrider. All in all, though, I just like to nitpick. Good essay. — JM76 ^Droid _IRC 00:28, February 5, 2010 (UTC)
• Great reference to that horrible Doom fan fic (I think that's where I read it...) . I think Yoda was another late Jedi, but he wasn't trained at a Jedi enclave at first.--Bluethunder^Talk 01:04, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

Hey, the whole "love and duty" stuff wasn't me. That was Baccie. Please direct all flame his direction. Have a nice day. -Solus ^{(Bird of Prey)} 19:27, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

Again, the Vader example was just an example of conflict. It doesn't contradict anything. As for the thing about older Jedi initiates, that part of this rant does say that there are exceptions. The reason Solus wrote that you won't be able to get away with it is because the universe is against you on this. The moment a fan fic writer decides that their Jedi character, we'll call him John for argument's sake, is going to be taken in at an older age, the author is pretty much destined to fail at it. Sure, maybe you can cheat fate on that one, but you're not going to have an awesomely awesome Jedi character like that. The only way that John would be able to do that is if you had him turn to the dark side, because John is the demons. By doing that, though, you're also falling into a Mary Sue trap of just having your character turn to the dark side because it makes him more awesome. So yes, while there are certain exceptions, and you may be able to do it, there's a 99% chance that doing it well is just as impossible as Jesus climbing off the cross and saying "psh, bitch please." That's why the rant says what it says. - Brandon Rhea ^(talk) 19:43, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

This was an enjoyable read. Nice to see that Solus shares a seething hatred of Mary Sues as I do. Trak Nar ^{Ramble on} 21:55, February 5, 2010 (UTC)

WAIT!! There's a problem. What about this little guy?  He was able to use the force when he was but a babe. God's Gift to women :) ^(Talk) 23:51, July 8, 2014 (UTC)

So basically Rey Skywalker? lol.  Artemaeus-Creed ^(Talk) 13:51, 16 December 2021 (UTC)